So, what DO you believe, Phil?

[dslartoo]

Pursuant to my last entry about atheism and why I strive to be a decent guy even though I don't believe in a god, here's a link to a well-written post on Atheist Revolution, called Then What Do You Believe?. It brings up some excellent points, including some of my own core beliefs, but because I'm feeling philosophical, I'm going to write today about what I, myself, personally believe.

I believe that no gods or Supreme Beings exist. Define a Supreme Being. Define a "god". Can you reconcile the three attributes "omnipotent", "omnipresent" and "omnibenevolent" with each other? Can you show any evidence for the existence of these beings, anything concrete beyond the tenets of blind faith? These are the primary reasons why I do not believe in any supreme being.

I believe that it is not just a choice, but a moral imperative of every human to explore, question, and expand their worldview. By the same token, I do not refuse to entertain discussion about religion or religious concepts. I will happily listen to arguments, viewpoints and opinions that differ from my own. Religion makes many good points, and those few who actually espouse the good principles of their religion are, at their core, Good People even without their religion. This is my firm belief. I can learn from them just like I would learn from any atheist. Closed minds gather nothing but dust.

I believe that people should be good to others, until they give you reason to do otherwise. I went over this in the last post, but it bears repeating. It is Good and Right to be cool to others. I believe this with all my heart.

I believe that truth is always preferable to fiction. Although I'm often tempted to play ostrich when something unpleasant happens in my life, I will always confront it sooner or later. Because truth, pure truth, is the last, greatest bastion of human thought. I would prefer to see reality as it is, even if it interferes with my own worldview, even if it shakes me to the core, even if it rips me apart. Reasoned, clear thought, science and demonstrable evidence will lead -- MUST lead -- to truth, unvarnished truth, and it's that truth that I prefer to any fiction which might be more attractive.

I believe that there is no afterlife. For similar reasons that I believe there is no god, I believe there is no afterlife. Because this is the case, I also think it's a moral imperative for people to make the most of what little time they do have here on earth. Make the world a better place with your actions, your presence, and the memories and things you leave behind.

I believe that there are many things in this universe that we do not understand. Albert Einstein is the source of one of my favorite quotes: "The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed." By this same token, I believe that there are many strange and mysterious things out there in this universe that we don't yet understand. I say this not as a fallback position for when science fails to explain something strange, but because I freely admit that humans are tiny creatures and our knowledge is limited. Are there other races out there, beyond the stars, with greater knowledge of the cosmos? It's possible. Do I hope to meet them one day? You bet. And going back to what I said about exploring and questioning -- just because we currently don't understand something doesn't mean that we might not be able to understand it one day. I do not think that anything is "unknowable" or "unutterable", merely misunderstood due to insufficient knowledge and understanding.

I believe that people are entitled to their own beliefs and that my own is not the One True Way. I, personally, believe I am correct in my belief (of course I do). But I also believe other people are entitled to whatever beliefs they choose. I don't agree with those beliefs, and I may not understand why you believe that, but whatever gets you through the night. I'm not going to call you a Godded right-wing Jesus freak because you do believe in a God. You're entitled. I won't try to convert you, or change your mind, unless you want to discuss it freely and openly.

What about you? What do you believe?

-- END OF LINE --

[[The Oracle would like to know if you have a magic or lucky number.]]

Comments

[dslartoo.livejournal.com]

And when you close your post with, "I'm not going to call you a Godded right-wing Jesus freak because you do believe in a God," I have a hard time with the protestations that you're not normalizing JudeoChristian monotheism as your default for religion and disregarding the variety inherent in other paths.

I used this statement precisely because it is a hypothetical situation. I would never use ANY kind of religious descriptor as an insult, to ANYONE. I wouldn't call someone a Hindu as an insult, or a Pagan as an insult, or a "Godded right-wing Jesus freak" as an insult. That particular phrase was just what I happened to use as the hypothetical insult in question. Since I would never use a phrase like that to ANYONE, no matter what they believe, it doesn't matter what phrase I used as a placeholder.

Regarding "single-god" religions vs. "multi-god" religions: answer me this, please. If I don't believe in a god (or God, or Goddess), for ANY REASON WHATEVER -- the reason why doesn't matter -- then how can you say that I can believe in other gods because their characteristics are "different"?

Also, as I said, "these are the primary reasons why I do not believe in any supreme being". I never said they were the ONLY reasons -- if I were to list EVERY reason why I was an atheist, this would run to fifteen pages. It was long enough as it was.

Finally, I'm sure you HAVE been assaulted by unpleasant atheists as well as unpleasant religious types. I'm sorry for that but all it does is underscore my point that EVERYONE should be tolerant and respectful of other religious beliefs.

I'll say it again, because it doesn't seem to have come across: These are MY beliefs. I accept that you may have others, and it doesn't bother me one whit.

cheers,
Phil

[fairgoldberry.livejournal.com]

Do you understand the semantic difference between, "I do not believe this" and "This is fiction"?

Because if your position is the former, I have no beef with anything you say. Belief is deeply personal. But if your position is the latter, then you have to, to earn my respect for that opinion, back it up. And since you make the statement that gods and godhood are, to your mind, fiction, and the only support you offer for that applies only to the JudeoChristian monotheism, I'm going to call you out on that. You assert that my gods are 'a fiction' because you can prove someone else's God is, and that's intellectually lazy.

You throw around a lot of words like truth and logic and reason, and yet you seem offended when I point out that your *displayed* logic (because how am I to respond to or know anything about those 'fifteen pages' of opinions if you give none of them? I can only go on what you've said here) applies only to one segment of those who believe in a God or gods, and leaves the rest of us out entire. If you say that something is 'the truth' and something else is 'fiction' then I'm going to point out that your reasoning doesn't apply to quite a bit of what you dismiss as 'fiction'.

And I'm not asking you to believe in my gods. I said that in my first post; I genuinely don't care if you believe in them or not, any more than I care whether you believe in the JudeoChristian one. But what I do care about is the tendency, in arguments concerning the validity of faith and divinity, to marginalise my belief system as not even worth separate consideration. And it's not just pagans. Hindus don't believe in omnipotent, omnibenevolent gods (see also: Kali). Buddhists, Taoists, they don't believe in 'a god' (though many Taoists believe in the divine, it's a principle without a straight translation).

I've been pagan for more than fifteen years. I have, in that time, seen a lot of arguments for and against faith, and overwhelmingly they are between JudeoChristians and atheists who focus on the JudeoChristian ethics and tenets. We who don't fit into that are often completely ignored, so whenever I see a post like yours, my tendency is to notice that it's pretty well based in the idea that JudeChristian views of God are normative. You have, as an atheist, a JudeoChristian bias because that's what you have predominantly come up against, I'd imagine.

MOST PEOPLE in this country have a JudeoChristian bias. Most people, when you start talking to them about gods and faith and divinity, work from the perspective that monotheism is the default, and they rarely stop to consider that the most common arguments against monotheism (the three O's, the inconsistency of the Bible, the historical dodginess of the Jesus stories, the remarkable lack of latter-day miracles) are completely irrelevant to polytheists and pantheists. Whether or not you *have* those fifteen pages of opinions as to why my gods don't exist, the fact that you *framed* your argument with regard to monotheism is significant in itself.

And why you should believe in many gods if you don't believe in one? You shouldn't. But when you bring in words like truth or fiction and imply that theists of any stripe are hiding their heads in the sand like ostriches, then I'm going to demand equal attention if I'm to be subjected to equal calumny.

Love,
Rowan

"I just believe in one less god than you."

[marared.livejournal.com]

Atheists bitch about the Judeo-Christian group because they have the greatest influence and the greatest impact. The pagan gods are just as fictional in my worldview as God, Allah, and Jehovah, but their followers don't have a small but loudmouthed minority hell-bent on making the country subservient to their laws, nor does the average pagan child punch another little girl in the face for not believing in her god.

So it's not that we trivialize you guys... you just don't piss us off! In fact, I *like* hanging with the pagans, Buddhists, etc, because I can have a conversation about spirituality (or lack thereof) that doesn't result in me or them feeling threatened. (other atheists, though - we's a bitchy, bitchy crowd.)

Re: "I just believe in one less god than you."

[dslartoo.livejournal.com]

it's not that we trivialize you guys... you just don't piss us off!

Thanks for saying what I was trying to get across yesterday. Apparently I was just not tracking well.

cheers,
Phil